against those that drive at mischief in their hearts and meeting,
making religion only their cloak, colour, or pretence; for so are

the words of the statute: IF ANY MEETINGS, UNDER COLOUR OR
PRETENCE OF RELIGION, ETC.

COBB. Very good; therefore the king, seeing that pretences are
usually in and among people, so as to make religion their pretence

only; therefore he, and the law before him, doth forbid such
private meetings, and tolerates only public; you may meet in

public.
BUN. Sir, said I, let me answer you in a similitude: Set the case

that, at such a wood corner, there did usually come forth thieves,
to do mischief; must there therefore a law be made, that every one

that cometh out there shall be killed? May not there come out true
men as well as thieves out from thence? Just thus is it in this

case; I do think there may be many that may design the destruction
of the commonwealth; but it doth not follow therefore that all

private meetings are unlawful; those that transgress, let them be
punished. And if at any time I myself should do any act in my

conversation as doth not become a man and Christian, let me bear
the punishment. And as for your saying I may meet in public, if I

may be suffered, I would gladly do it. Let me have but meeting
enough in public, and I shall care the less to have them in

private. I do not meet in private because I am afraid to have
meetings in public. I bless the Lord that my heart is at that

point, that if any man can lay any thing to my charge, either in
doctrine or in practice, in this particular, that can be proved

error or heresy, I am willing to disown it, even in the very
market-place; but if it be truth, then to stand to it to the last

drop of my blood. And, Sir, said I, you ought to commend me for so
doing. To err and to be a heretic are two things; I am no heretic,

because I will not stand refractorily to defend any one thing that
is contrary to the Word. Prove any thing which I hold to be an

error, and I will recant it.
COBB. But, goodman BUNYAN, said he, methinks you need not stand so

strictly upon this one thing, as to have meetings of such public
assemblies. Cannot you submit, and, notwithstanding, do as much

good as you can, in a neighbourly way, without having such
meetings?

BUN. Truly, Sir, said I, I do not desire to commend myself, but to
think meanly of myself; yet when I do most despise myself, taking

notice of that small measure of light which God hath given me, also
that the people of the Lord (by their own saying), are edified

thereby. Besides, when I see that the Lord, through grace, hath in
some measureblessed my labour, I dare not but exercise that gift

which God hath given me for the good of the people. And I said
further, that I would willingly speak in public if I might.

COBB. He said, that I might come to the public assemblies and
hear. What though you do not preach? you may hear. Do not think

yourself so well enlightened, and that you have received a gift so
far above others, but that you may hear other men preach. Or to

that purpose.
BUN. I told him, I was as willing to be taught as to give

instruction, and I looked upon it as my duty to do both; for, said
I, a man that is a teacher, he himself may learn also from another

that teacheth, as the apostle saith, WE MAY ALL PROPHESY ONE BY
ONE, THAT ALL MAY LEARN. 1 Cor. xiv. 31. That is, every man that

hath received a gift from God, he may dispense it, that others may
be comforted; and when he hath done, he may hear and learn, and be

comforted himself of others.
COBB. But, said he, what if you should forbearawhile, and sit

still, till you see further how things will go?
BUN. Sir, said I, WICKLIFFE saith, that he which leaveth off

preaching and hearing of the Word of God for fear of
excommunication of men, he is already excommunicated of God, and

shall in the day of judgment be counted a traitor to Christ.
COBB. Ay, saith he, they that do not hear shall be so counted

indeed; do you, therefore, hear?
BUN. But, Sir, said I, he saith, he that shall leave off either

preaching or hearing, etc. That is, if he hath received a gift for
edification, it is his sin, if he doth not lay it out in a way of

exhortation and counsel, according to the proportion of his gift;
as well as to spend his time altogether in hearing others preach.

COBB. But, said he, how shall we know that you have received a
gift?

BUN. Said I, Let any man hear and search, and prove the doctrine
by the Bible.

COBB. But will you be willing, said he, that two indifferent
persons shall determine the case; and will you stand by their

judgment?
BUN. I said, Are they infallible?

COBB. He said, No.
BUN. Then, said I, it is possible my judgment may be as good as

theirs. But yet I will pass by either, and in this matter be
judged by the Scriptures; I am sure that is infallible, and cannot

err.
COBB. But, said he, who shall be judge between you, for you take

the Scriptures one way, and they another?
BUN. I said the Scripture should: and that by comparing one

Scripture with another; for that will open itself, if it be rightly
compared. As for instance, if under the different apprehensions of

the word MEDIATOR, you would know the truth of it, the Scriptures
open it, and tell us that he that is a mediator must take up the

business between two, and a mediator is not a mediator of one, -
BUT GOD IS ONE, AND THERE IS ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, EVEN

THE MAN CHRIST JESUS. Gal. iii. 20; 1 Tim. ii. 5. So likewise the
Scripture calleth Christ a COMPLETE, or perfect, or able HIGH

PRIEST. That is opened in that He is called man, and also God.
His blood also is discovered to be effectually efficacious by the

same things. So the Scripture, as touching the matter of meeting
together, etc., doth likewisesufficiently open itself and discover

its meaning.
COBB. But are you willing, said he, to stand to the judgment of

the church?
BUN. Yes, Sir, said I, to the approbation of the church of God;

(the church's judgment is best expressed in Scripture). We had
much other discourse which I cannot well remember, about the laws

of the nation, and submission to governments; to which I did tell
him, that I did look upon myself as bound in conscience to walk

according to all righteous laws, and that, whether there was a king
or no; and if I did any thing that was contrary, I did hold it my

duty to bear patiently the penalty of the law, that was provided
against such offenders; with many more words to the like effect.

And said, moreover, that to cut off all occasions of suspicion from
any, as touching the harmlessness of my doctrine in private, I

would willingly take the pains to give any one the notes of all my
sermons; for I do sincerely desire to live quietly in my country,

and to submit to the present authority.
COBB. Well, neighbour BUNYAN, said he, but indeed I would wish you

seriously to consider of these things, between this and the
quarter-sessions, and to submit yourself. You may do much good if

you continue still in the land; but alas, what benefit will it be
to your friends, or what good can you do to them, if you should be

sent away beyond the seas into SPAIN, or CONSTANTINOPLE, or some
other remote part of the world? Pray be ruled.

JAILOR. Indeed, Sir, I hope he will be ruled.
BUN. I shall desire, said I, in all honesty to behave myself in

the nation, whilst I am in it. And if I must be so dealt withal,
as you say, I hope God will help me to bear what they shall lay

upon me. I know no evil that I have done in this matter, to be so
used. I speak as in the presence of God.